Ben Mandelson - December 1999 - by Ian

backstage - Irish Centre - Leeds

This interview was conducted some time ago - when Ben was touring with Billy Bragg and his backing group - The Blokes. This was before my meeting with Howard and shortly after completing an interview with Dave Formula. Ben was extremely generous to spare half-an-hour after a lengthy gig and proved extremely helpful in suggesting new lines of enquiry for my research. As an off-the-cuff chat it was remarkable to hear so much about his brief spell with Magazine and subsequent career. Special thanks to Grant Showbiz for arranging the meeting - Lu Edmonds of The Damned for his truly impromptu History Of Punk which followed and - not least - John Keenan (of 'Futurama' fame) for the hospitality.

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IG: You were there for 'Magic - Murder and the Weather'.

BM: We did a single or two and an album together.

IG: How did that come about then?

BM: Well the existing band split - and this guy called John-

IG: McGeoch.

BM: They had had another guy - Robin Simon - who did a live album with them.

IG: Play.

BM: Yeah - 'Play' in Melbourne I think and then he went off. And I'd actually gone to college with Howard. I'd known him for donkeys.

IG: Was that in Leeds?

BM: In Bolton. And me and Howard were pals anyway. I came down to the rehearsals because while they were finding a new guitarist they were also rehearsing for MMATW on the next tour and all those sorts of things. So I came down to help out and to see the dummy guitar players and the fiddle player. It got to the point really where they were auditioning guitarists while I was rehearsing the set with them to help. But then it got to the point of "Oh - fuck it. I might as well just do the job." And they said "OK. Fine. If that's how you feel." It wasn't really much of a surprise - really.

IG: It was quite a space to fill.

BM: Yes. I took the guitar where- what John McGeoch forgot to do.

IG: There is a similarity. It's very fitting

BM: You should ask Lu [Edmonds]. He was in PiL with McGeoch. He knows all about him.

IG: That's a surprise. How extensive was your work with Magazine?

BM: Very much we managed to do the album - a single and a few other things and then Howard said "No. I don't think we'll do shows anymore." It had got to the point where we were all asking when we were to start rehearsing for the tour. I think Howard didn't want to do live shows with that line-up. He did eventually with Luxuria or whatever it was-

IG: A few live shows for 'Jerky Versions Of The Dream' too.

BM: Yeah - he did various things but it's always very hard to make an album and then go to see some other guitarist doing your songs and doing your guitar solos two years later. And you think - "Oh - That's curious (giggles) The replication." But I think Howard knew exactly where he was at. For me - it was very fresh to be in Magazine but for him he'd been through a lot more. He was writing a lot.

IG: So what was his temperament at the time. He was very stand-offish with the press.

BM: It would be out of place for me to say. Howard is as Howard does - really. He has a powerful mind so I just think that's what he was. So I wouldn't say he was stand-offish - maybe reserved. Or he may feel insecure or resent a certain amount of intrusion from people.

IG: He just wasn't keen on the press.

BM: Sure - it's the punk ethos in saying "this business means nothing to me."

IG: He moved away from punk.

BM: Well - like I say - Howard is as Howard does. Y'know - it's not for me to do a deep character analysis. I think the music business harbours a lot of people with a lot of different attitudes. I certainly share some of his points of view about the greed and parasitism of the media and hardcore business. I remember going into Virgin with Howard and the rest of the band when we wrote MMATW. We said to Simon Drake "Well. That's it." He was quite stunned that we had to do it. We had a situation with a producer called John Brand who had produced the whole album and mixed it. We decided amongst us that we didn't like the mix. We didn't like his work. Sometimes with a band you have a dynamic and when you make a decision you feel it's just right. We didn't like it - we didn't like it. We had to have a meeting saying "thanks - John. You've done the job - but you're canned - you're off the case. We're going to get someone else on the case."

IG: That someone being Martin Hannett.

BM: Yes - Hannett.

IG: Tell us a little about him.

BM: Again - whatever Hannett is Hannett does. It's funny with the John Brand thing where nobody was still. Everyone was shifting around. There was no dynamic. "Man - you're cold." We had to say what we felt. Martin was very different - because he had worked with them before and he had his drug choice-.

IG: Was this a particularly bad period.

BM: I shant say. I have very good memories of that time - because I was very young and innocent and my memory of working in Strawberry Studios was going "They've got a microwave. I've never seen one." (laughs) You could make incredible toasted cheese - but a professional musician discovering a microwave is pathetic really. But that's where I was at. I was certainly not up to analysing the moves of producers. The guy said to me - the guy who did our guitars - I said "How are you?" He said "I'm fine. The microwave's great. You can do milk in it too." Do you know what I mean? It was just unreal to me.

IG: Do you still keep in touch with these people?

BM: There was Malcolm Garrett. It was a very nice little arts scene to be in. There was Steven Appleby who now does all of these various cartoons. There was a guy called Richard Boot - who now manages a studio called the Strongroom which he went into with Formula. It's just off Tottenham Court Road. It's just a small area there.

IG: Howard's recorded there with Luxuria and now Mansun.

BM: Oh yeah - it's a very good facility now. The person I've never seen since that time was Raf - who was the manager at the time. He reminded me of-

IG: No way of contacting him?

BM: I've just got no idea where he is. I bump into Barry from time to time but John Doyle I haven't seen in donkey's years.

IG: I heard stories McGeoch had gone abroad. Alcoholic - then living in Hammersmith.

BM: Talk to Lu.

IG: Dave is the first person I've spoken to.

BM: I know John Doyle and so on. We all exist - I know that. We had to get together a while back to sort out songwriting contract royalties because I think some had been misdirected back. It was a weird thing -.

IG: Something to do with credits?

BM: No - it wasn't a dispute. It was a mis-assignment by one of the publishers who suddenly decided to reassign it so we had to write a round letter saying "No - it is as it is." It was the MCPS and Virgin who had the writing and publishing contract. So - we're all around. Like I said - I see Barry and I spoke to Dave a while back. But Howard - we played at his wedding when we were 3 Mustaphas 3. We actually played his wedding dance. It was very nice.

IG: Bizarre. When was that?

BM: Donkeys. But not as many donkeys as the donkey years since I last spoke to John McGeoch I must say- er - John Doyle. Yeah - and I see Howard. We're sort of old pals and to be honest I think he's a very humorous and smart kind of guy.

IG: What have you done since? Mekons - I know.

BM: I was a Mekon for a day. Again - Lu is a lot more Mekon. Lu is a very Mekon Mekon. (laughter) But after I did Magazine- it's funny because I got a publishing advance for the songs on the album.

IG: You're credited on four.

BM: Yeah - but we had an agreement between us that everyone got a little something for everything to make it more of an equitable split. I took the money and I went to East Africa and heard a lot of African music. It was the first time I went in 1981. Either I went there and went onto an African trip and I got very into African music. Or - I went into a very weird stage show about the life of Hank Williams. I can't remember which way round they came - two very different things.

IG: I've got a lot of time for Hank. I bought the box set last year.

BM: Right - it's great. It was a stage show which was about the life of Hank Williams and it was meant to be the concert he didn't get to. As you know - he died on the way to Canada - Ohio. The stage show was a mock-up fantasy of "What if he made it to the concert." And during the concert he tells the story of his life - so I was playing a guy called Don Helmes - who was his steel guitar player which is the very instrument I was using tonight. Because what goes around comes around and fifteen - twenty years later these skills come in useful. So I did that and the Africa thing and from there - I got back to London. I was then working with an African band - a London-based band called "Orchestra Jazira" and for that I did rhythm guitar. Then that mutated and I ended up in a band called 3 Mustaphas 3 - who played in Leeds a few times and even played here in fact.

IG: I'm far too young.

BM: Sure - but even so we had a lot of albums out and toured a great deal. I did all sorts of things. I had a parallel life working for a record label called Ace records - looking out for their World music label called GlobeStyle Records. I often produce. We've done 98 no - 99 albums and maybe the 100th is about to happen. I've done a lot of producing on the World Music scene - so I've been quite an active World Music record producer in that interim time. Then I took 4 years out to be director of a trade fair called WOMEX which was based in Berlin in Germany which was again a World Music conference - trade fair and showcase event. So that kind of took me out of the music playing aspect. I stopped playing in 1991.

IG: That explains your absence.

BM: Yeah - I really stopped playing. OK - I did the odd session but I was doing a lot more production and administration of a travelling music event based in a different country so it really took me away from the pleasures and pain of rock'n'roll. Where are we now - December? 18 months ago Billy called me up and he told me he was doing the Woody Guthrie project and he would like a band in the UK to work on the Woody stuff live. He was working with a band called Wilco in the States-

IG: Sure - I know.

BM: Yeah - the 'Mermaid Avenue' project. But he wanted his own active band rather than having to always fit in with Wilco's plans. They have their own career too - so it was better and more flexible.

IG: I enjoyed 'Summerteeth'.

BM: Yeah - it's very good but they're very American. Or rather - and they're very American. It's a very American record - a very American sound. So Billy just said could I could help to put a band together and did so.

IG: How did he know you?

BM: I've no idea. Because he is as he does. We'd played various festivals with him and different places. And it's not such a big scene - on a kind of roots/rock rant. But people know Billy - he knows Lu. People know me from people - it's just that.

IG: The songs have changed a lot. I saw Billy 3 years ago with the Moodswings and they were very different in some places. What went on with rehearsals?

BM: Billy was very open and keen to have us play how we felt the songs rather than "here's the record - learn it." Because otherwise - you don't develop and grow if you just say "Learn that - learn that - turn up." Billy was very keen - and he said when we started "I don't want to have a pub rock band" and I think that's right. So I'm playing pretty wacky instruments and Lu is playing his Turkish instruments. I'm playing my Greek instruments - they're not standard rock axes. My hat goes off to him - because he said "Yep. That sounds great - what does that do?" Pointing at different instruments - "It'd be good to hear that too. What does it do? Let's do that." Rather than going "Oooh - I don't know about that Turkish thing." So - he was very good and the thing started to evolve. And then putting Mac [of The Faces] in the mix as well.

IG: It was great to see him tonight.

BM: Oh yeah - he's a goodun.

IG: You were in Bolton. How long ago.

BM: A long time ago.

IG: Mid-Seventies?

BM: Earlier than that I think. Seventy two or 73 - I can't remember.

IG: Howard's from Leeds.

BM: I met him in Bolton. I think then he went to Manchester did he not - or come back to Leeds to finish his degree. You're going to have to ask him - he'll tell you the chronology he wants you to know. But we lived in the same place.

IG: Were you very involved in the scene - or were you too early?

BM: I was there a year - maybe 18 months. Not heavily into music and then off I went. I was very interested in a weird mixture of folk and - y'know - avant-garde squeaking.

IG: What avant-garde squeaking?

BM: Very avant garde squeaking.

IG: Tell me more.

BM: That was the time when there was a lot of very British avant-garde squeaking which-

IG: Derek Bailey?

BM: Yeah - Derek Bailey - John Stephens - Evan Parker and all that. I used to get the bus down from Bolton to London on the bus. An overnight bus and stagger on 30 bob - that's £1.50 in old money and I used to stagger around London for a day for the Little Theatre club and see this weirdness - these weird shards of music flying around and then I'd get on the bus and go back.

IG: Do you read The Wire at all?

BM: Yes - I've got the new one in my bag.

IG: The last one featured Stewart Lee writing on Muslimguaze. It's a great snapshot of everybody's introduction to earnest musicians looking terribly serious about the most unremarkable objects on the stage.

BM: (laughs) Yeah - it's exactly like that. Although I must say the most rock'n'roll gig was Derek Bailey+XYZ and they were very intense. No drugs were required.

IG: Such control too.

BM: And yeah - he also used to be fucking loud. And certainly in the smaller clubs - it was loud. You really felt raked with barbed wire - y'know. Very rock and roll. And then this whole punk thing came up. And by that time I'd been in a band called the Amazorblades and we'd had our first single out on Chiswick Records. Obviously - Chiswick and Stiff were the first two indie labels. And all that punk stuff - and I was right in the middle of all of that with my wacky beard - my long hair playing fiddle. Every gig you were gobbed on. All we did was play louder and faster because of it - which is great. We survived quite a bit of that. That was my introduction to the world of punk and speed-thrash-folk-weirdness delhi. And that's how I know these people. Lu was in The Damned - on Stiff of course. A lot of us go back to that 75-76-77 period when Stiff and Chiswick were probably the only two - well not the only two labels-

IG: Eddie & The Hot Rods and Dr Feelgood were there.

BM: Oh yeah. Billy was there with-.

IG: Riff Raff I think. Unavailable records now.

BM: Yeah - I used to go and see Riff Raff all the time - they were one of my favourite bands. I used to go down to a pub called The Pegasus - which was my local - is my local in fact in London - I think it's finished now - which is near Pathway Studios where all these records are made. I'd go and see Billy and Billy used to work with Kirsty [MacColl] at the time and I did some sessions with Kirsty - as did Lu.We used to go and see each other play at The Nashville Rooms. It was one of those scenes. It's funny - I've read Mac's book and he talks about after he'd been a Face and a Small Face and all those things - and he went to one of the first punky gigs he'd ever seen - at The Nashville to see the Police of all things. And I was there too and it was very odd. And for him - who'd all ready been an established pop star and was seeing something change. For me - I hadn't become an established pop star. Not now I suppose - bit more of a vet now. Veteran. Very interesting times and all that. Y'know - finally got a hair cut (laughter) and cut the hippy flag off. All very wacky. All very wacky.

IG: Returning to Magazine - was your guitar playing informed by the avant-garde squeaking you'd been listening too.

BM: Yeah - but I tried to play in time and in tune for the benefit of the band - y'know. I really tried hard - but there are a couple of cuts we did where I played very avant-garde squeaky violin. There's one - I don't know which - where I played so squeakily and avant-gardly that they mixed me out! (Laughs). I was really trying to do that - to behave like that.

IG: Dave hangs on to a lot of tapes - perhaps it still exists.

BM: I bet. I'm very curious to have heard the rejected John Brand mix.

IG: I am. No idea of it until now.

BM: Yeah - we did that. "Sorry John. Thankyou. Bye bye." In those days - it really feels like dinosaur times. We had for delays - for recuts and reverbs they had a reverb room. They had an echo room which is basically a big concrete room like this with fifteen foot long speakers at one end and a mic at the other end. And they'd play your track on the speakers and they'd turn the mic on and re-record and you would get the delay in the air. There was a row of mics - and as they picked up the time-difference - would give you the correct echo delay. And to do reverb you'd go down the stairwell and clap - stick a mic at the top and wiggle it around. I mean - that seems like reading about the history of recording 78s and we did that. We recorded in a studio called Trident which was in the centre of London. Nice big studio - but still it had a reverb room upstairs and doing clapping in the stairwell. That's how long it feels - the lack of technology. We could have been carving the recordings out of wood or cutting shapes out of potatoes and stamping them onto the tape. It's that long ago.

IG: How did you receive HDs lyrics. How much did they vary during the recording process? Significantly?

BM: Yes - I would say so. Howard would get hold of an odd phrase or saying. I can't remember the track - but it contained the line "Pepsi Cola brings your ancestors back from the grave" which is a mistranslation I think from a Korean or Chinese book from what was meant to be "Pepsi Cola refreshes you and your family." He also had some kind of weird pornography record which got cut into a which was "We never sit on chairs/And we have beds to use." It wasn't musique-concrete - but lyrically it was a concrete way of cutting bits up to stick them in.

IG: Bowie and Burroughs - or another source?

BM: More the Burroughs influence.

IG: Well - Bowie did borrow it.

BM: Howard is a very well read gentleman

IG: Oh yes - the lyrics are what interests me. The awareness becomes more extreme as he developed. Suburbia is important.

BM: To be honest if you took that fully - then you'd start to look in on yourself. That's not Howard's way.

incoherent at this point - but Ben moves on to a general point.

BM: I had to move to London at that time - because there was no punk scene. Actually - Brighton then London. If I'd've waited two years - I wouldn't have bothered. Punk was very liberating in that you could stay at home and make a record. You didn't have to go to London. so - I don't know whether Howard was driven by lyrics or by a career to move up and down. Manchester and then London or anything like that. Ask him - he'll tell you.

IG: I will be down again soon. Shall we meet up.

BM: Sure - but I'm not the most forthcoming about the Magazine thing - because it was my period of dumb innocence. Howard says "Hey - be my man" and I go "Okay" - y'know.

IG: That's very interesting.

BM: I was like Howard's found object - like so many things.

IG: I'm interested in all viewpoints about Magazine.

BM: Good band - I think. Very good band

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