Integrity - invention ambiguity too (two) being distorted selections from an interview (written and spoken) with Howard Devoto.

Who has - factually - among a lifetime of other things: formed the Buzzcocks - promoted the Sex Pistols at Manchester's Lesser Free Trade Hall July 1976 - left the Buzzcocks unexpectedly early this year after contributing the words to the remarkable Spiral Scratch - and has been an important part of flourishing Mancunian musical activity. Still is.

The EP has b'com a classic - which could mean that it has entered the subconscious of enough individuals to enter that of the mass. Unusually - the lyrics are remarked upon as much as the music.

Devoto is now 'voice and occasional guitar' for Magazine. Who also are: Barry Adamson (bass) - Martin Jackson (drums) - Bob Dickinson (piano) and John McGeogh (guitar). Bob maybe will play some violin.

A demo tape of three songs - 'Shot by Both Sides' - 'Suddenly We're Eating Sandwiches' and 'The Light Pours Out of Me' - reveals music very different to the Buzzcocks period: open-ended - mature - haunting - commercial. Perhaps 'Shot' is nearer to the old sound (being in fact part composed with Pete Shelley): 'Eating Sandwiches' (the lyrix from Beckett's 'How it is') is jauntier - spry. 'The Light Pours Out of Me' begins with cool - metronomic drumming leading to a spare - deeper vocal - before reaching climaxes highlighted by high-register electric piano. A feeling reminiscent of Eno/motorik/disco - but more definite. Music full of light and shade - with gaps left for the listener to project into- the songs are still revolving within my head.

Record companies are interested.

Devoto is not easy to interview. Perhaps being aware that the media twist. As no doubt this piece has already. Or not wishing to give everything away. Why should he ? The interview consequently takes place in two stages. Firstly - some questions are quickly thought up and related over the phone. At this stage - a shot in the dark. No meeting - little knowledge/surmise from scanty press and the EP. In between the questions and the return of the answer - an exploratory meeting. The demo tape is played. The answers arrive.

Jon Savage: Do you think we live in insane times ?

Howard Devoto: Some of us do - some of us don't.

On the EP - your lyrics are above beyond most punk bands- are you conscious of that ?

I'm not interested in being 'beyond' most people: i.e. over their heads. I get vertigo just like the rest. Sometimes it's better just to get under people's feet. What else can I say ? I try to live up to my words - that is put my life where my mouth is and vice versa. Punk has made for a shift in perspective in what people look for in music and that gives me space to move. I want to move with the times but without going through the motions - if you see what I mean.

Do you want to do something new with punk ?

Nobody invents new colours or new feelings. The first snowfall is fresh and in some sense new. But it isn't different necessarily from last year's snow. Nor is it old goods in a new wrapper.

In retrospect your decision to leave the Buzzcocks was wise. Were you worried about being trapped in an image - and people's expectations ?

I don't how you could know it was wise. I don't want any credit for it. I didn't go through any pain making my decision: it happened naturally. At that time I don't think - and I can't think - I had an image to get maternal about. But I'm sure getting trapped in an image can be a big thrill. And expectations are useful things - like deadliness. You only get trapped in them if you let yourself.

Do you improvise your lyrics ?

When I forget the words I make noises that sound like words.

Do you change all the time ?

I forget.

What do you want to do with Magazine ?

Improve people's memories.

Do you want to be popular at a mass level ?

I can take it or leave it.

Do you want to avoid being trivialized by commercialization ?

Being commercialized isn't necessarily to be trivialized. You can be on billboards and still go straight to people's hearts - and that is what you really want to do. It's not trivial. One of the reasons why rock is here and now so vital (at least compared with other mediums) is because it's so commercialized.

Do you remember dreams ?

I take pills to stop myself.

Do you feel claustrophobic ?

I get in the same tight spots as anyone else. It makes no odds.

Sometimes when you walk around the street do you feel alien ?

I have also pills to stop that happening. I give them to people who make me feel that way.

Are you interested in Muzak ?

Not my type of question really (commiserates with interviewer).

I'm fascinated by gaps in communication-

I'm all for them. I don't believe in closing them up. I believe in trying but not succeeding. They've got to be big enough for an average-sized adult to pass through comfortably. There will be communication gaps until they've got the whole world bugged. There's something totalitarian about complete and perfect understanding. Do you see what I mean ? They give you room to breathe - time to think.

Do you listen to much music ?

Not my type of question really (leaves the room).

These prompt a severe rethink and the desire for a further meeting.

That's fine - to my considerable interest is added the spice of a challenge. A further meeting transpires: we drive from Manchester through afternoon Oldham/Rochdale - the demo tape playing- ending at Birch Service Station - M62 - to do the interview on cassette.

Devoto takes care over the answers - pausing frequently - face mobile as he searches for the right word. He is detached - glints of amusement appear sometimes around the eyes and mouth - but willing to talk. Some rapport is established - he relaxes. The conversation is undercut by taped Muzak/rattling cutlery.

We were talking about gaps- I deliberately want to leave gaps - but it's also a matter of not trying to tell the whole story about something - when you can't. Not trying to make up the bits that are going to fit-

Like writing about something and giving the impression you know everything about it-

I guess so. But I feel really concerned about mistaken impressions - mishearing - and ambiguous experience. Just on straight sense things - when you think you've seen something - and it doesn't turn out to be what you've seen; I think there's always a way of learning that as well - it doesn't always happen by accident.

When we were talking about fanzines - you mentioned the phrase "moral fibre"-

Well- I don't understand what's wrong with the world - if there's anything wrong with it- but it might be something to do with what people call moral fibre. (Quickly) I just felt from reading an awful lot of things that I couldn't work out the stand that somebody has- like Punk magazine - or listening to the Talking Heads album- I just couldn't work out what this guy's angle was. It's a falling for style. But in fanzines there's a real opportunity for people to put in the little peculiarities of their lives-

You seem to love language.

It's once again where you think about phrases you've been using all your life - and you think - 'Where the hell did this phrase come from ?' But I don't exactly love language - in many ways I've tried to get rid of it: like Spiral Scratch is packed from beginning to end with words - and I really want to try and get away from that.

You said something about needing to burn out your rock'n'roll obsession-

I was just trying to get straight what Peter [Shelley] said to Caroline Coon [Sounds - 17 September]. This thing about how I wanted to feel what it was like to be a rock star - and once I found out - I wouldn't be interested any longer- which wasn't quite true. I mean - I suppose everybody wants to find that out-

It's one of the fantasies of the age-

But that was a very small part of the reason for doing anything.

What were the others ?

Trying to find something to get excited about.

Which often means you have to do it yourself.

Hmm. Yes. I mean I've never been any good at sorting out what people meant by having a good time - having fun. That fascinated me for years- I don't think I ever found out what it is. It was like I had to substitute work for fun - going to parties - rubbing mean streaks with a lot of people. "No fun" is a great phrase: I really don't understand this great plug that fun is having.

You seem to be stating complex ideas in simple language in your range-

Yes - but they're not worked out. I leave a lot of loose ends for me and everybody. Just taking certain phrases out of context and putting them together-

"I'm living in a movie which doesn't move me." I love that-

I think it's a very common feeling- it's just that I don't think a lot of people take notice of it. It's also: surely everybody has moments of wonder- This is a free country - surely everybody has them-

The last question- why have you been wary of interviews ?

Because I know that this stuff - or some of it - is going down in black and white. I didn't write a song off the top of my head. Somebody might be trying to force me to shoot my mouth off about anything-

I understand. Thank you.

No complete story - then : should I ever want to close them (which I don't) the gaps are left firmly open

ShotByBothSides.com/how_s1177.htm