you are totally shameless, Zen (Bob) - perhaps a little bit bitter? the facts are Magazine made 3 superb records that still stand the test of time - not many bands can say that... (although i would love to have heard 2nd Hand Daylight produced by John Barry as was once mooted) - i don't mind if they never fulfilled their potential and just fizzled out - we are left with some great pop songs... i'm sure they didn't envisage people would still be debating them nearly 30 years later... at least one of the 5 (Barry) is still making music that is relevant... (you forgot to list Chas 'N' Dave on your influences - honky tonk... the way forward)

Obviously Flux your comments are from a 'rock' perspective based on an assumption that for music to be relevant it has to follow and advance that 'grand' tradition....it seems to me that your critical reference points need to be widened. Re. 'Motorcade' - that track was composed as a direct result of listening to the music of Satie and other 'minimalists'. All this talk of 'John Barry' influences on it (ie Stuart Maconie on BBC6 recently), so wide of the mark. As for your comments on the 'Chas n' Dave' pieces (ho,ho) I suggest you expand your horizions to say Yann Tiersen ('Rue des Cascades'), Phillip Glass ('Metamorphosis')- or read Michael Nyman's book 'Experimental Music- Cage and Beyond'.... For me, personally, music's more about 'simplicity' and 'system' with the reference points (musically) being elsewhere. That was the case then and still is now.

or as Chas n' Dave might say....shut the flux up!

not from a rock perspective at all, Zenbob... just from a music lover's perspective - i know Yann Tiersen's work well and Philip Glass's Glassworks/Company is beautiful...Reich remixed/Boby Lapointe/Carl Stalling/Cornelius/Deerhoof/Alex​andre Desplat/Bernard Herrmann/Loose Fur/John Vanderslice/Lecuona/Moondog are all proof that i do not just have a rock perspective... you may have to stop banging on about your 1 contribution to Magazine... and... i checked out your track... sorry to say... could do better - see me after class

Reich remixed/Boby Lapointe/Carl Stalling/Cornelius/Deerhoof/Alex​​andre Desplat/Bernard Herrmann/Loose Fur/John Vanderslice/Lecuona/Moondog?:all​ very much the 'Wire' stable of music appreciation. What about Reich's Piano Phase (original version)? Terry Riley's Keyboard Studies? Howard Skempton's piano miniatures? Hugh Shrapnel? Gavin Bryars, 'Out of Zaleski's Gazebo'? Satie's 'Vexations'; John Cage's 'Cheap imitation'; Phillip Corner's work; These latter stip away the surface gloss and bring the music back to its basics. Read Nyman for homework and hopefully that will put everything in context. As for my comments on 'Motorcade', just trying to shed some light on the whole creative process from the position of one who actually did it ...as for your other comments, well, what can I say.

and re:'I know Yann Tiersen's work well': that maybe, but obviously not well enough.

and at this point, I rest my case y'r honour!!!

Hi Aussie Dave. I worked (drove people around) on that tour in Melbourne and Sydney. I got to spend a lot of time with the bands and even had dinner one night with Howard. I have some photos from the shows and other bits and pieces. The big Melbourne show was XTC, Magazine, Flowers and Models. This show was filmed and recorded. Play comes from this gig. Five tracks were also shown on Channel 7's Nightmoves including Shot By Both Sides and Feed The Enemy which didn't make it on to Play. Magazine also did a 'live-to-air' from the Family Inn gig in Sydney. Flowers weren't the support on any of the other shows i worked on.

Hi Aussie Dave. I worked (drove people around) on that tour in Melbourne and Sydney. I got to spend a lot of time with the bands and even had dinner one night with Howard. I have some photos from the shows and other bits and pieces. The big Melbourne show was XTC, Magazine, Flowers and Models. This show was filmed and recorded. Play comes from this gig. Five tracks were also shown on Channel 7's Nightmoves including Shot By Both Sides and Feed The Enemy which didn't make it on to Play. Magazine also did a 'live-to-air' from the Family Inn gig in Sydney. Flowers weren't the support on any of the other shows i worked on.

Zenbob - i think you are getting far too bogged down in the theory and analysis of music (fine if you are just a critic) but as a writer, it should be spontaneous... i would be far more interested in hearing about your time with Devoto and why it didn't work out... too much bickering not enough composing, perhaps?

I'd prefer to follow this one in more detail via e-mail if you're interested. However, for everyone else out-there Howard and I actually had a very friendly relationship totally devoid of antagonism in any area. For the relatively short period of time I was with the band, composing was at the fore, which from my position involved writing keyboard arrangements for all the early songs prior to Dave Formula appearing (for example, 'The light pours out of me','Burst', 'My Tulpa'). And following my departure, I did briefly meet up with Howard to develop some material but nothing much came of that. I was also invited to do a couple of London gigs which I declined. Why? Well, to be honest, my flirtation with rock was over and it was time to return (initially) to more avant-garde fields playing music by the likes of Mauricio Kagel, Gavin Bryars and others.

Re. your other comments, for me personally, theory depends upon practice and the two cannot be separated(the theory underlies the practice even if it is unstated). 'Magazine' was no big deal for me, just an interlude in a longer line of creative musical activity. That's not to devalue its importance, as like any 'affair' or 'brief encounter' the echoes can still be picked up and influence and affect one in whatever you might be doing at this particular moment in time.

Re. your other comments, for me personally, theory depends upon practice and the two cannot be separated(the theory underlies the practice even if it is unstated). 'Magazine' was no big deal for me, just an interlude in a longer line of creative musical activity. That's not to devalue its importance, as like any 'affair' or 'brief encounter' the echoes can still be picked up and influence and affect one in whatever you might be doing at this particular moment in time.

thanks, Zenbob - those last 2 posts were much more interesting... ok - i may have been a little harsh on your Magazine contribution... (why did Formula join?) - you don't need to be educated in music to compose - theory can get in the way of purity... in fact the more you work at something... the more confused it can sound... initial ideas tend to be the clearest and best... i'm not sure i subscribe to Rimbaud's 'poem's are never finished - just abandoned' theory

At the time I was with the band I was commuting back and forth from Keele where I was completing a PHD in spatial aspects of North American Live Electronic music and in addition I was doing a great deal of extra-curricula experimental music work. So, I only really turned up for band rehearsals and that was it. As a result, I never really became part of that essential chemistry which makes up a band and creates the true group dynamic. I had other interests and goals at the time and rock notoriety was not really one of them.

I really think that it was for these reasons that Dave Formula was brought in. I do know that Martin Hannett had a hand in it prior to my actual departure. I was still with the band when Granada 'So it Goes' broadcast a live gig with myself as part of the line-up and I'm pretty much certain that at the time Martin Hannett contacted Howard re. the availability of Dave Formula/Tomlinson as keyboardist. So, I imagine that Howard must have spoken to Martin re. replacing me even whilst I was still with the band. This led to my first and last social drink with the band at a pub in Manchester town centre and a relatively short 'goodbye'. The affair was brought to a sudden end, thankfully, without tears!

Strange however, that following this event, Howard asked me to play for some gigs in London and to even collaborate on some songs. The latter partially happened but not the former.......

Strange however, that following this event, Howard asked me to play for some gigs in London and to even collaborate on some songs. The latter partially happened but not the former.......

I have the video clip with you on keyboard. Read your interview here a few years ago & was v. interested. So many questions but terrified of you & all those other characters. Does this mean that Zen et al are now deceased?

I think Simon Reynolds hits the nail on the head when he refers to me as 'the avant-garde musician who did'nt quite gel'. Hopefully, the reasons for this I've given in as open and as honest a manner as possible

I s'pose so - those others, just a way to engender debate and discussion from both the 'inside' and 'outside' at the same time. A merry prank, so to speak. If you have any questions then feel free to field them now

thanks for filling us in, Zenbob - enlightening... now go and find that honky tonk setting on your keyboard - it will pay dividends

A merry prank ....very odd. Was interested that you mentioned Dick Witts in the interview from 2001-ish. Isn't he also a music lecturer?

A word to Flux: its such a pity that you somehow find it so difficult to say 'thankyou' without adopting a mocking tone. Your comments are quite simply, hurtful. I'm sure you'll reply but if you had any decency......

To Anon: Dick lectures and writes on many different aspects of music.

Just intrigued as to the true identity of Flux who as a 'character' first appeared on these pages at the start of March but with an unusually large number of postings which cannot be traced to Flux(45). At the very end of February, Jack Prussia vanished with the exact same number of postings (45). I suspect Jack Prussia is Flux.

Flux also appears to have an unusually large number of IP addresses. Throughout his life on these pages I've tracked at least 10 and counting changes on a daily basis. Most of us have either one or two. Interesting, eh?

also worth noting that the IP number #688 attributed to Anon on 21.4. is shared with Flux on both 3/4 and 30/3.

Some computers seem to generate different IP's. Definitely don't think Jack Prussia is Flux at-all. I'm not him either...just a harmless nobody who loves M/zine.