Sacred Cows: the problem with Devoto is that he believes too much in his own art-worthiness. Evidence:- the early Paul Morley interview and his intro at a recent Buzzkunst gig (to Pete Shelley:'He's Buzz...and I'm KUNST ' (art))... Devoto seems to have been torn between two worlds that of (pop) art in which he could convince quite easily and that whole other world inhabited by the likes of Joyce, Sartre, Beckett, Dylan, etc. in which his success/existence/survival would have been far harder to achieve and maintain.He opted for the former in which he could quite easily mould his own iconic image through gathering around him a dedicated following of group members and music journalists critical to a degree but ultimately swallowing the 'serious artist with a touch of irony' image.

Can we do anything about the recent spammers that have suddenly invaded this board (see below)? Nameless/Sacred Cow, read Momus' article on this site 'Dinner Wih Devoto' if you haven't already. IMHO, he doesn't come over as arrogant. See the part where he says 'who would cycle to my cottage industry' or words to that effect.

Surely a site such as this should act as a forum for discussion and debate not merely an altar at which to worship? I felt my comments below had a reasonable amount of intelligence about them and perhaps could have stimulated some worthwhile debate. Obviously not......as I actually knew Howard I felt that my comments had some degree of substance. Don't feel threatened but try and escape from such a one-dimensional uncritical mindset you seem to have fallen into!

A one dimensinal uncritical mindset. You're not Bob Dickinson are you?

No, although I did have some contact with him circa 77......

i think Sacred Cow/Nameless are taking Howard too seriously, too literally and too literary... he has a wicked sense of humour that can quite often be misinterpreted... we all know Howard and we've all met him...and we don't care whether you've once been for a drink with a keyboard player who played on a punk single in the late 70's... and... this site is not a shrine... it's a co-creative ideological hubstation with KNOBS on

...and all knobs have bollocks but don't necessarily speak bollocks....ps the aforementioned keyboard player did'nt even play on a punk single in the late seventies!!! Obviously I've landed on the wrong site and my quest for reasoned discussion has fallen on deaf ears (mind you it is a Magazine fan site). Beam me up Scotty........

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thanks for the countdown John. Good to read heated debate here.

I can’t claim to have met HD, not on a bus and not in a pub, and not even in a library, maybe this is no great loss, for either of us. The inevitable small talk could only kill secret thoughts. The bigger talk from under the floorboards is of more value. Keep it up!

Are we maybe collectively guilty of over rating HD and Magazine? I am not sure. I do know that MY desert island discs would be dominated by Magazine. But as to how good they really were I cannot say. It is tough being critical about something that was everything, was so personal. They gave me what I needed when I needed it.

The question is: Why are we still interested in stuff which is a quarter of a century old?

In so many cases the music is like a pillow on which to rest our heads, enabling us to read in its signs inspiring thoughts and restimulating memory symbols, yet at the same time it masks our ears and stops us from really listening.Ultimately it can suffocate and kill our awareness of the new...

In real acoustic terms the song arrangements sometimes lack discretion and in their naive overblown/overstated manner fail ultimately to let the real music within to breathe......but then that's a problem with so much of rock's rich tapestry, yet we continue to consume it, as it is what we know, love and understand......'False knowledge replaces true wisdom and the music is left lifeless, orphaned and helpless......'

....although it may not appear that way to the listener coloured as he/she is by a complex personal historical pattern of listening/life experiences

I am just watching 24 hr. party people. Ian Curtis has just commited suicide. He did'nt find the cushy pillow... or maybe he did?

......or is it just easier to stay with the old and familiar......

......sometimes it's difficult to take the shock of the new......and if we create that which is new and are forced to promote it, in the process losing control of the reins to some other, then maybe the void is the only answer - it returns us to the source from which we came...and that has the potential to offer comfort......

So they shared common flaws with other bands, is this what makes the difference between success and failure? I don't think so

Is music therefore both useless and dangerous?

Ian Curtis looked for an exit as did Howard - both found it each in their own way......but Howard left his options open!

It's tempting in this context to see whether it is Ian or Howard who more truly aligns with this paraphrased quote from Plato: '.....the only (songs/speeches) that are worthy of serious attention are those that are...actually written in the soul......'

...better than all the small talk from under the floorboards!!!!!

....at the end of the day it's all about who was the most honest in the purveying of the sounds...for me it's those who extract them from their souls that make it to heaven......having seen Ian Curtis live in a state of shamanic trance-like ecstasy I've got a sneaking feeling that he made it.....no urbis platform for him

......or eyeliner....his packaging was what he came into this world with and left with......

maybe magazine were dangerous... they taught us to accept mediocrity... accept our fate. I would sing in my head... a model worker i will willingly be... To talk about them now is really talking about ourselves then. It is not about creating a new order.

...at the end-of-the-day it's only sounds we're talking about...are they really worth all this? We're all here on this site for whatever reason due ultimately to our complicity in achieving unit sales for our musical heroes/idols/demigods which has placed them in the public arena......

Many thanks to our board administrator for removing the offending posts.

I hold you responsible Open Mind - our secret is out: I have an early Magazine cover of 'Mouldy old dough' on which Howard plays piano. Offers?

Our secret is out Open Mind: any offers for an early Magazine cover of 'Mouldy old dough' with a killer piano part provided by Howard?

The feck? People! This isn't an instant messaging page. If you feel the need to spam each other for entertainment, there's this thing called Yahoo!Messenger (see link). Some people put a lot of time and effort into their posts. If you can't do the same, then LEAVE. It's a sad level of desperation those of you picking on S-G have dropped to. Are you that bored? Leave her alone. Helen made a couple of wonderfully detailed posts a while back. Now, instead of that (or similar posts), those people looking for INFORMATION and come here only see a flood of disgusting, respectless gibberish from people who do not know when to stop. Maybe it is time you guys are left to yourselves. :/

I agree on this one Neike - but the open discussion with Leon last night surely touched on some pretty serious areas and moved this site into another dimension (albeit rather briefly). Why are all the regulars getting so touchy and sensitive? It's like they treat these pages as an exclusive club and merely a forum for small-talk and exchanging information. Yes, the latter is relevant and important (relevant and important I repeat) but as Leon said, let's give some time to the big-talk from under the floorboards cos' it could prove - in the long-term - to be quite illuminating. Let's open our minds but cut oout the crap......

now let's talk about music.......after creating so much original and cutting-edge material what caused some members of Magazine to work with Visage? It makes me wonder whether the fashion/image thing came first and the music second at times. Any views on this or am I underestimating the musical substance of Visage and the integrity of our respected musicians?

Yes. I am to blame for this invasion. But not by invitation. I begin to realise that I am (and by default this site is too) the subject of internet stalking.

thanks for not thinking me(s) offending posts. But I do confess to buying Leiutenant Pigeon, I prefered the b side 'the villain'.

John Cage, are you refering to the lack of guitar skills in later magazine line-ups? Or shall we just be honest and say JMcG, genious though he was, had to 'hurt and crave again'. As did Howard as he was taken to the top of the mountain. Look what it did to his body! read my book @

perhaps it was a case of musical self-harm open mind, a sort of lying around in the ashes....prior to a coming up for air....in some cases this did'nt happen but for others it did - barry adamson and nick cave, moss side story, david lynch......etc. etc......others have tried to redeem themselves for their post-magazine litany of crimes against music (visage, ultravox,etc.) whilst others have paid the price.....anyhow less of the musings....some info now for the others: spotted dave formula in lincoln waitrose t'other week perusing the tea section......

....interesting to note how certain ex-magazine members have shifted away from the path of the overblown and into more rootsy paired-down areas of music-making...martin jackson was perhaps the first with his hip-excursions,more recently bob dickinson with his ethnic new-age mind babble, ben mandelson's african stuff and dave formula working with the angel brothers plus satnam singh.....

....sorry martin i meant to write 'hip-hop' excursions............

......and none of them felt the need to 'hurt and crave again'.......maybe therein lies the answer open-mind.......